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DTS-HD Master Audio output -- plus TrueHD, DD+ and DSD
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PS3SACD
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:42 pm    Post subject: DTS-HD Master Audio output -- plus TrueHD, DD+ and DSD Reply with quote

Just updated the front page about the new v2.30 upgrade and specifically about DTS-HD Master Audio output. Anyone please correct us if anything in the description is wrong.

Assuming it's correct, we're probably starting to see a pattern here: the absence of pure DSD output is apparently no oversight but intentional. It fits in with the lack of bitstream output for all other high-resolution audio formats -- Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and now DTS-HD Master Audio. All are converted to 5.1 or 7.1-channel PCM. This nicely shows of the Cell's impressive processing power but we still don't get it. Why not output the real thing? After all, HDMI is well-protected with HDCP. What's the worry?
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krzysop1



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry but I don't see the page is changed.
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PS3SACD
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you see the item dated April 15th? Did you try refresh/reload?
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krzysop1



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it, thanks.... have you tested SACD to DTS via optical yet?
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krzysop1



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will this update allow DTS-Core to go out through optical as 1.5 MB bitstream or will it only by 2 channel PCM? That would be a terrible disappointment if it came through as only 2 channel PCM.
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FunkyMonkey



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krzysop1 wrote:
Will this update allow DTS-Core to go out through optical as 1.5 MB bitstream or will it only by 2 channel PCM? That would be a terrible disappointment if it came through as only 2 channel PCM.


What is DTS-core?
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krzysop1



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DTS-Core is the same as base signal w/o the HD extensions. BTW: I got my answer about DTS-Core, PCM 2.0 ect. on another forum. I will share it with you here.

"To all you posting about which sounds better (PCM or bitstream) when using the PS3's optical output connected to their AV Receiver please consider these points:

- When the PS3 is set to bitstream via its optical output you are getting standard (lossy) Dolby Digital or DTS core with discrete surround channels (e.g., 5.1, 6.1, etc) depending what is recorded on that BD title. This is essentially the same sound quality as with DVDs, although in some cases at a little higher data rate providing a little better sound quality.

- When the PS3 is set to output PCM via optical you are only getting 2 channels of stereo audio out of the PS3, but if the disc you are playing has uncompressed PCM, Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-MA this PCM can be of very high quality, but it's only stereo. In this case your AV receiver must create the surround channels using Dolby Pro Logic II or DTS Neo. To some people having discrete surrounds will be preferred while for others having higher fidelity on the primary front channels, although with less precise surround audio, will sound better. Therefore, there is no single answer possible since both are less than ideal configurations, each with different strengths and weaknesses.

- To most people when comparing 2 otherwise identical audio sources, the louder will sound better (even if only slightly louder). Louder is not sonically better since both alternatives can be adjusted to the identical level by the AVR., nor does louder really indicated anything about the technical merits of one alternative or the other."

Source: Ron Jones-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13647289

Post# 530
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FunkyMonkey



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that, much appreciated.

I now have a HDMI receiver. Before that, I used a 2-channel amp with inferior speakers. However, with Blu Rays, the sound was phenomenal. Rich and detailed.

So I would always opt to have the higher resolution (lossless) soundtracks converted artifically into surround (if necessary) if I only had an optical connection.
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Brandon B



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:50 am    Post subject: Re: DTS-HD Master Audio output -- plus TrueHD, DD+ and DSD Reply with quote

PS3SACD wrote:
This nicely shows of the Cell's impressive processing power but we still don't get it. Why not output the real thing? After all, HDMI is well-protected with HDCP. What's the worry?


Perhaps the "bitstreaming capabilities unknown" special PS3 HDMI chipset, as many surmise, lacks the ability. It really does seem the most likely explanation (and would mean the when is never).

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: DTS-HD Master Audio output -- plus TrueHD, DD+ and DSD Reply with quote

Brandon B wrote:
Perhaps the "bitstreaming capabilities unknown" special PS3 HDMI chipset, as many surmise, lacks the ability.


That doesn't seem to make sense.
  • The drive does deliver the signal (DSD, DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA) to the back end;
  • The HDMI output is capable of very high bitrates, after all 7.1-channel 24-bit 96 kHz PCM means a lot of bits;
  • The HDMI output must be capable of supplying the above standard because it's of version 1.3.

The only thing that has to happen is no processing instead of heavy processing (conversion to PCM), just transparent passthrough. It should be as simple as that, shouldn't it?
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FunkyMonkey



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: DTS-HD Master Audio output -- plus TrueHD, DD+ and DSD Reply with quote

PS3SACD wrote:
Brandon B wrote:
Perhaps the "bitstreaming capabilities unknown" special PS3 HDMI chipset, as many surmise, lacks the ability.


That doesn't seem to make sense.
  • The drive does deliver the signal (DSD, DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA) to the back end;
  • The HDMI output is capable of very high bitrates, after all 7.1-channel 24-bit 96 kHz PCM means a lot of bits;
  • The HDMI output must be capable of supplying the above standard because it's of version 1.3.

The only thing that has to happen is no processing instead of heavy processing (conversion to PCM), just transparent passthrough. It should be as simple as that, shouldn't it?


No, it may not ne that simple. My guess is that there must be an extra chip that allows "pass-through" of the high-def sound signal that is read off the disk. Why else would the PS3 happily allow "old-style" DD and DTS through, but not the high-def equivalents?

Another things, I think people are confused between old "lossy" codecs and the new lossless ones. The old lossy ones required DECODING and therefore differences occurred with how the bits were re-constructed.

Now my understanding (based on early discussions when the PS3 came out) is that the lossless codecs only need DECODING into PCM, and that is the msae algorithm, be that in the player or the receiver. Pleace correct me if you know for certain that is wrong.
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krzysop1



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am NOT a an A/V expert but from my understanding of the terms lossy and lossless we are talking about sample rate frequencies which make the digital sound as close to original as possible. This is because as the signal needs to be of an exceptionally high frequency in a digital format. The lower the frequency the more the loss. HOWEVER..... this issue is not without debate BECAUSE..... the human ear cannot hear above a 44 Khz level on average. So what if you can reproduce at 192Khz/24 bit? You do get a C L E A N E R sound but not much more to the ear because your hearing won't absorb the highest frequencies. Your dog might smile though. It also sounds fuller because the bitrate is much higher in HD. However to remind us all, 44 Khz/16 bit has been CD quality for years and everyone seemed to like it. Now we can use CD's (DVD's) of greater density and export sound in 192 Khz/24 bit chunks. But will it make a great difference? Debatable. I for one am not going to run out and spend $900 on a new AVR just to tickle my ears. My budget RX-V361 is fine. It WOULD be nice however if SONY made some sort of cable from the normal A/V jack on my receiver with six discrete plugs to put in my receiver analog ext. jacks . I could them handle the 5.1 PCM and get HD. At present I only have the option via optical (my AVR does not have HDMI). Anyway that "terrible lossy" DTS-Core at 768 Kpbs still sounds great to my ears. Very Happy
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krzysop1



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW: PCM=Analog. Since the DTS HD signal is converted to PCM in the PS3 what we are trying to grapple with is making the digital sound as close to a smooth and perfect analog master. Ironic eh???
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krzysop1



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See the debate here:

http://www.hifivision.com/music/871-human-hearing-standard-cd-vs-sacd-dvd.html

Above 44.1Khz and you can't hear it anyway. :0
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krzysop1 wrote:
I am NOT a an A/V expert but from my understanding of the terms lossy and lossless we are talking about sample rate frequencies which make the digital sound as close to original as possible. This is because as the signal needs to be of an exceptionally high frequency in a digital format. The lower the frequency the more the loss. HOWEVER..... this issue is not without debate BECAUSE..... the human ear cannot hear above a 44 Khz level on average. So what if you can reproduce at 192Khz/24 bit? You do get a C L E A N E R sound but not much more to the ear because your hearing won't absorb the highest frequencies. Your dog might smile though. It also sounds fuller because the bitrate is much higher in HD. However to remind us all, 44 Khz/16 bit has been CD quality for years and everyone seemed to like it. Now we can use CD's (DVD's) of greater density and export sound in 192 Khz/24 bit chunks. But will it make a great difference? Debatable. I for one am not going to run out and spend $900 on a new AVR just to tickle my ears. My budget RX-V361 is fine. It WOULD be nice however if SONY made some sort of cable from the normal A/V jack on my receiver with six discrete plugs to put in my receiver analog ext. jacks . I could them handle the 5.1 PCM and get HD. At present I only have the option via optical (my AVR does not have HDMI). Anyway that "terrible lossy" DTS-Core at 768 Kpbs still sounds great to my ears. Very Happy


Sounds liek you are getting confused between samlping frequencies and sound-frequencies.

44.1 and 192 kHz samlpign frequencies is a measure of how many times a second in a digital recording, a readign of the sound signal is taken. Not the frequency of the sound.

The word-length BASCIALLY referes to how accurately each sample of sound that is taken can be recorded, i.e. 24-bit gives you 8 more bits compared to a 16-bit signal.

As for CD's, the problem is not really the samlpign rate, but the word-length I think. I think this limits the dynamic range, i.e. the difference between the quitest sounds and the loudest sounds. Not important for pop music, so CD is more-than-good-enough for your average pop. But for more complex stuff like jazz, classical, and generally live acoustic music, CD's limitations can be...well, limiting.

As for films, I have compared DD and DTS-core, and the difference between them and lossless is that lossless codeces give you a better sense of being there, i.e. when in a crowd scene voices are more distinct, in a jungle scene there is more ambience. It's the difference between wood-effect plastic in a car, comapred to real walnut!!!
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