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Gennadyi
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 6
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desertsky
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| If you're hoping to burn the sample DSD files from the Lindberg 2L website to a DSD Disc and have it playable on the PS3, you're out of luck. The PS3 won't recognize the tracks because they're in DFF format, not DSF format. They're very similar formats, but different enough that the PS3 won't play DFF. DFF is the standard 1-bit file DSD format used for SACD production. DSF is the DSD format Sony came up with for Sony VAIO computers and the PS3. You can burn the DFF files to a DSD Disc. It will play back on a VAIO PC or Windows Media Player 11 using the DSD plug-in. But the PS3 won't play the disc as it only recognizes the DSF format, not DFF. DFF files can be converted to DSF if you happen to own a Korg MR-1 or MR-1000 1-bit recorder. Both come with the Audiogate software which can convert from DFF to DSF or vice-versa. |
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PS3SACD
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 316
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| desertsky wrote: | | The PS3 won't recognize the tracks because they're in DFF format, not DSF format. |
Here's another thing to add to our wish list to Sony for PS3 -- although of course there must have been a reason they came up with a different flavour of the format.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation. |
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PS3SACD
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 316
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Desertsky's excellent guide on How to make you own DSD Discs is from now on available in the FAQ section on this site, including the plug-in that went missing from the original post referred to above.
http://www.ps3sacd.com/dsddiscguide.html |
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Jens
Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'm curious: can the 40-GB PlayStation3 play DSD Discs even though it can't play SACDs?
Assuming that the hardware difference is only in the front end (in the optical drive) and this is relevant for SACD but not for DSD Discs because they're recordable DVD discs for which only the SACD back end (DSD decoding which happens on the Cell) I expect it will work but can anyone with a 40GB unit confirm this? |
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The Seventh Taylor
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 401
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| What I wonder: can DSD Discs be multichannel? The Korg may be stereo only but what if you generate a 5.1 audio stream? Surely this must be possible on a PC? |
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desertsky
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The Seventh Taylor wrote: | | What I wonder: can DSD Discs be multichannel? The Korg may be stereo only but what if you generate a 5.1 audio stream? Surely this must be possible on a PC? |
I'm pretty sure DSD Disc can only handle 2-channel DSD. I downloaded the sample 5.1 channel DFF clip from the 2L website. My VAIO which plays back DSD natively could not decode the file. Neither would my Vista PC with the WMP11 DSD plug-in. Since the PS3 cannot handle DFF files, only DSF, there's no way I can test it with the PS3 without having some way to convert the 5.1 DFF to 5.1 DSF. My Korg MR-1 and VAIO notebook will only record 2-channel DSD. You probably need a high-end recording setup to generate 5.1 channel DSD files. |
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Gennadyi
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: Direct Stream Digital Interchange File Format |
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Direct Stream Digital Interchange File Format
http://www.sonicstudio.com/pdf/dsd/DSDIFF_1.5_Spec.pdf
DSF File Format Specification
http://www.dsd-format.sony.net/data/DSFFileFormatSpec_E.zip
DSD Disc Format Specification
http://www.dsd-format.sony.net/data/DSDDiscFormatSpec_E.zip
dsdiff files headers - not DSF
stereo
1 01 - Jumpin' Jack Flash.dsf (converted from wav by Phlips Protech audio format converter - demo)
0000000000: 46 52 4D 38 00 00 00 00 │ 02 85 FF D4 44 53 44 20 │ FRM8 Е ╘DSD
0000000010: 46 56 45 52 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 04 01 04 00 00 │ FVER
0000000020: 50 52 4F 50 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 6C 53 4E 44 20 │ PROP lSND
0000000030: 46 53 20 20 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 04 00 2B 11 00 │ FS +
0000000040: 43 48 4E 4C 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 0A 00 02 53 4C │ CHNL SL
0000000050: 46 54 53 52 47 54 43 4D │ 50 52 00 00 00 00 00 00 │ FTSRGTCMPR
0000000060: 00 14 44 53 44 20 0E 6E │ 6F 74 20 63 6F 6D 70 72 │ DSD not compr
0000000070: 65 73 73 65 64 00 41 42 │ 53 53 00 00 00 00 00 00 │ essed ABSS
0000000080: 00 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 4C 53 43 4F 00 00 │ LSCO
0000000090: 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 │ 44 53 44 20 00 00 00 00 │ DSD
00000000A0: 02 85 FF 00 99 99 A5 A5 │ 96 96 99 99 69 69 A5 A5 │ Е ЩЩееЦЦЩЩiiее
2 2L38SACD_Mozart1_stereo_DSD64.dff
0000000000: 46 52 4D 38 00 00 00 00 │ 17 B6 DF A0 44 53 44 20 │ FRM8 ╢▀аDSD
0000000010: 46 56 45 52 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 04 01 04 00 00 │ FVER
0000000020: 50 52 4F 50 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 5E 53 4E 44 20 │ PROP ^SND
0000000030: 46 53 20 20 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 04 00 2B 11 00 │ FS +
0000000040: 43 48 4E 4C 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 0A 00 02 53 4C │ CHNL SL
0000000050: 46 54 53 52 47 54 43 4D │ 50 52 00 00 00 00 00 00 │ FTSRGTCMPR
0000000060: 00 14 44 53 44 20 0E 6E │ 6F 74 20 63 6F 6D 70 72 │ DSD not compr
0000000070: 65 73 73 65 64 00 41 42 │ 53 53 00 00 00 00 00 00 │ essed ABSS
0000000080: 00 08 00 00 13 10 00 04 │ BC BE 44 53 44 20 00 00 │ ╝╛DSD
0000000090: 00 00 17 B6 DD FC 66 66 │ 96 96 99 99 69 69 66 66 │ ╢▌№ffЦЦЩЩiiff
3 2L50SACD_tr1_DSD_stereo.dff
0000000000: 46 52 4D 38 00 00 00 00 │ 07 B2 6B CE 44 53 44 20 │ FRM8 ▓k╬DSD
0000000010: 46 56 45 52 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 04 01 04 00 00 │ FVER
0000000020: 50 52 4F 50 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 5E 53 4E 44 20 │ PROP ^SND
0000000030: 46 53 20 20 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 04 00 2B 11 00 │ FS +
0000000040: 43 48 4E 4C 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 0A 00 02 53 4C │ CHNL SL
0000000050: 46 54 53 52 47 54 43 4D │ 50 52 00 00 00 00 00 00 │ FTSRGTCMPR
0000000060: 00 14 44 53 44 20 0E 6E │ 6F 74 20 63 6F 6D 70 72 │ DSD not compr
0000000070: 65 73 73 65 64 00 41 42 │ 53 53 00 00 00 00 00 00 │ essed ABSS
0000000080: 00 08 00 00 1D 10 00 04 │ DA 2B 44 53 44 20 00 00 │ ┌+DSD
0000000090: 00 00 07 B2 6A 26 66 66 │ 96 96 99 99 69 69 66 66 │ ▓j&ffЦЦЩЩiiff
multichannel 2L50SACD_tr1_DSD_multi.dff
0000000000: 46 52 4D 38 00 00 00 00 │ 16 EE 63 76 44 53 44 20 │ FRM8 ■юcvDSD
0000000010: 46 56 45 52 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 04 01 04 00 00 │ FVER
0000000020: 50 52 4F 50 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 6E 53 4E 44 20 │ PROP nSND
0000000030: 46 53 20 20 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 04 00 2B 11 00 │ FS +
0000000040: 43 48 4E 4C 00 00 00 00 │ 00 00 00 1A 00 06 4D 4C │ CHNL ML
0000000050: 46 54 4D 52 47 54 43 20 │ 20 20 4C 46 45 20 4C 53 │ FTMRGTC LFE LS
0000000060: 20 20 52 53 20 20 43 4D │ 50 52 00 00 00 00 00 00 │ RS CMPR
0000000070: 00 14 44 53 44 20 0E 6E │ 6F 74 20 63 6F 6D 70 72 │ DSD not compr
0000000080: 65 73 73 65 64 00 41 42 │ 53 53 00 00 00 00 00 00 │ essed ABSS
0000000090: 00 08 00 00 00 07 00 02 │ 4C 23 44 53 44 20 00 00 │ L#DSD
00000000A0: 00 00 16 EE 61 C0 66 66 │ 66 66 66 66 96 96 96 96 │ ■юa└ffffffЦЦЦЦ
header for 01 - Jumpin' Jack Flash.dsf (converted from wav by Phlips Protech audio format converter - demo)
Form DSD Chunk
FRM8 00 00 00 00 02 85 FF D4 | DSD | # The formType is always 'DSD '.
FVER 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 04 | 01 04 00 00 # Format Version Chunk
Property Chunk
PROP 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 6C | SND | # Sound properties - 'SND '
FS 20 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 | 00 04 00 2B 11 00
CHNL 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0A | 00 02 | SLFT | SRGT
CMPR 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 14 | DSD | 0E | not compressed
ABSS 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 | 00 00 | 00 00 | 00 00 | 00 00
LSCO 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 | 00 00
DSD 00 00 00 00 02 85 FF 00 | 99 99 | A5 A5 | 96 96 | 99 99 | 69 69 | A5 A5
Last edited by Gennadyi on Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:30 am; edited 3 times in total |
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The Seventh Taylor
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 401
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| desertsky wrote: | | I'm pretty sure DSD Disc can only handle 2-channel DSD. |
Ah, of course -- multichannel DSD would have to be losslessly compressed to DST, requiring additional logic. Why didn't I think of that? |
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PS3SACD
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 316
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PS3SACD
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 316
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Jens wrote: | | I'm curious: can the 40-GB PlayStation3 play DSD Discs even though it can't play SACDs? |
Yes, we can answer that question affirmatively. All PS3 models are DSD Disc-compatible -- even the ones that aren't SACD-compatible. |
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michilumin
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Writing a converter from DSF/DFF , DFF/DSF should be pretty trivial, I've got equipment here that generates DSDIFF (DFF) files, so i'll give that a shot, if i can identify which bytes in the header are different consistently...
One question I have though, if the newer (40g, etc) PS3s can decode DSD, why on earth can they not play SACD? It almost seems artificial...
Unless it's an issue of the pit signal processing algorithm only being available in hardware, or something like that, and that was eliminated...
It's likely not the transport/laser/pickup (KSS-xxx) assembly as in previous SACD players these were actually all "common" among DVD-only and DVD/SACD models.
It could have been part of an 'official company decision' to stop supporting SACD, which I have heard did happen (admittedly only in rumor), meaning SACD could just be "soft off" in these models, but that all gets twisted around with the recent release of the XA5400ES.
Getting my 60gb back from sony repair today, (began shutting down randomly), so its time to see if non-PSP-encoded SACD images work. (read: burnt images.) This might shed some light on the "PSP in hardware" issue. |
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Yuri
Joined: 28 Aug 2007
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| michilumin wrote: | One question I have though, if the newer (40g, etc) PS3s can decode DSD, why on earth can they not play SACD? It almost seems artificial...
Unless it's an issue of the pit signal processing algorithm only being available in hardware, or something like that, and that was eliminated...
It's likely not the transport/laser/pickup (KSS-xxx) assembly as in previous SACD players these were actually all "common" among DVD-only and DVD/SACD models. |
It likely is. I've worked in the Consumer Electronics DVD business and I know extra hardware is required in the optical drive's front end. The drives for DVD and DVD/SACD models were definitely different. The complexity of it was such that making an SACD-compatible DVD writer drive (for a DVD Recorder) was delayed again and again until in the end it just didn't materialize.
What's still surprising though is Sony obviously has managed to build a BD/DVD/SACD/CD reader drive (it's in all earlier PS3s) but incomprihensibly decided not to use it in a conventional A/V device like the new ES series players announced this week. |
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dvdasacd
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| michilumin wrote: |
Getting my 60gb back from sony repair today, (began shutting down randomly), so its time to see if non-PSP-encoded SACD images work. (read: burnt images.) This might shed some light on the "PSP in hardware" issue. |
If/when you have any results, let us know. |
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PS3SACD
Site Admin
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 316
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: |
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There's an interesting article about recording, editing/mixing and mastering in DSD in Sound on Sound:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb09/articles/qa0209_1.htm
The article forgets to mention that the latest SACD player, Sony's SCD-XA5400ES, does play DSD-Discs. It also seems odd the author mentions DSD transcoding to 'high-res' PCM but overlooks DXD.
Pity the article links to the DSD Disc spec included on PS3SACD.com but not to the DSD Disc guide. Let's hope smart readers will find their way based on the URL anyway. |
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