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To those with Onkyo receivers playing SACD via the PS3..
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Joe6Pack



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:04 am    Post subject: To those with Onkyo receivers playing SACD via the PS3.. Reply with quote

Hope this is the right forum to post this in, if not, forgive me since I'm new here and this is my very first post...

I recently upgraded my receiver with an Onkyo TX-SR875 and shortly there after, purchased, an 80GB PS3 (mainly for it's BR and SACD playback). I have only one SACD in my collection at the moment, "Dire Straits: Brothers In Arms" which I picked up when it first came out.
Although I didn't have an SACD player at the time, I was/am a huge Dire Straits fan and I own "Brothers In Arms" on every audio format it's ever been released on. Needless to say, with my new A/V equipment, I was more than a bit anxious to finally listen to my very first SACD.

While in the PS3 "sound settings" menu, I selected the "auto" option and it basically selected ALL of the audio output options available, from 2 channel 44.1kHz all the way through to 7.1 channel 192kHz. (I'm assuming the PS3 automatically picks the best possible output ?).
Sitting back on the sofa and hitting the play button, I played the entire album twice in a row. I honestly could not have been happier with the way the album sounded. Playing this SACD version via the PS3's HDMI output, I'd honestly never heard this album sound better Very Happy

The display on my 875, reads "MCH PCM 5.1 @ 176.4kHz" so obviously the PS3 selected the highest possible output which, (don't get me wrong) was all fine and dandy with me since it sounded so good already, but unfortunately I no longer had the option of experimenting with any of the Onkyo's numerous "DSP modes". Sad


I know many audiophiles laugh at the idea of using any kind of DSP" with music playback and see these options as nothing more than "marketing gimmicks". Many of them prefer to listen to their music the way it was intended and for the most part, I'd agree with them. I too was never much a fan of using them in the past but I'll be the first to admit that "sometimes", some of these modes sound pretty darn good and really improve the overall experience of listening to the music. (Onkyo and Yamaha seem to be the only two companies that have DSP modes I actually like)

I've grown particularly fond of Onkyo's "Studio-Mix" mode and wondered how (or even if) it would be possible to use it during SACD playback with the PS3.

Heading back into the PS3's sound menu, I found that if I un-selected the 5.1 channel @ 176.4khz option and left all others on, the PS3 would output at 88.2kHz but I now had all of my Onkyo's sound fields back, including "Studio Mix".
Not surprisingly, "Studio-Mix" really "opened up" the sound stage and made for a much more enjoyable experience. Only thing though, is that the PS3 is only outputting at 88.2kHz.

My question is, am I leaving anything on the table by not outputting the audio at 176.4kHz ??

Maybe I'm being a little paranoid here but I'm just worried that I'm somehow "missing something" by not selecting the PS3 to output @ 176.4kHz. Is it at all possible to still have access to the sound modes while the PS3 is outputting 176.4kHz? Is this an issue with the Onkyo875 itself or is it something to do with the PS3 and how it transmits the signal?

Do I have any options here or must I manually "un-select" 176.4kHz in my PS3 menu any time I want to listen to SACD's?


Does anybody else have a similar receiver and can share their thoughts on the subject? How do you have your sound options selected and are you using any of your receiver's built in sound fields or are you just listening to your music "as is".

Any and all response's would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Smile


Last edited by Joe6Pack on Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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The Seventh Taylor



Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 401

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until a few years down the line we get DSPs that offer sound processing options at 176.4 kHz you'll have to choose between unprocessed sound at 176.4 kHz and processed sound at 88.2 kHz. I'm already surprised it can do this at anything above 48 kHz. There's nothing wrong with your PS3 here, it's simply a limitation of the DSPs.

Note that the PCM output signal from an SACD is still something processed (converted) from the original DSD stream. I'm still hoping Sony will enable direct DSD output from SACD on PS3 but DSD is notoriously more difficult to do anything with in terms of alteration than PCM.

As to the question whether you're missing out on something, you may bear the above in mind but in the end please only trust your ears.
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FunkyMonkey



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a member of sa-cd.net and here is what I posted just a couple of days ago about this very subject....

Right, I tried various settings on my PS3 to get the optimum settings once and for all from my PS3. This is a summary of my findings:

Bitmap 3 processing is my favourite for both CD and SACD - I had established that already.

For CD Playback:
I tried the Music Settings set to upsample to 88.1 and 176.2 kHz. I found both of these to add an artificial tingle to the CD sound - best described as if the PS3 was trying too hard. I have found this on a cheapo DVD player in the past too - extra data is generated and to me it just sounds like noise rather than addign to the core data.
Therefore I was left with the option of 44.1Khz (as per the CD) and 48kHz. Now don't ask me why, but 48kHz sounds more natural and detailed through my equipment. So I'm stickign with that.

For SACD Playback:
The options were 88.1Khz to let Onkyo receiver to Audyssey magic or 176.2kHz to get the full resolution of the SACD at the expense of not having Audyssey. Well it took 3 different SACD's and several listens to each goign back and forth between teh settings. In the end, I noticed far less than 10% (just a guesstimate) loss of audible data with 88.1kHz over 176.2 kHz. However, the payoff was maybe a little more dynamic control of transients. However, upon reflection, and after more listening I deceided I wanted the full data from the SACD, and if that meant greater detail of sound at the expense of slightly less control of the sound, then I opted for that, i.e. the percentage increase in detail at 176.2 kHz was more beneficial in my listening environment than the increased control at 88.1kHz (with effectively half the data resolution lost in mathematical terms).
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dieroboter



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting topic. I'm never pleased with the sound of regular CDs when I choose 88.1 and 176.2 kHz on the PS3. I should test 44.1-48 kHz then, I guess. I own an Onkyo 605.

Regarding the DSPs, my Onkyo, as Joe6Pack explains, doesn't let me change them. This means I can only listen to CDs in my front and center speakers. Also, the subwoofer does so little work, almost nothing. So, if I change to 44.1-48 kHz, will I be able to tweak the DSPs or, at least, double the sound in my rear channels?

I also use Bitmap 3, after some tests, it's definitely the best. 176.2 kHz in SACD. I prefer to listen to the surround mix as it is intended to be enjoyed, no need for DSP tweaks here, in my opinion.

A bit off-topic, but I absolutely love "Minimum-Maximum" DVD, by Kraftwerk, to test my surround set. The DTS track is so great. Never had the chance to listen to the SACD version of it, though. You all should give it a try Wink
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FunkyMonkey



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dieroboter wrote:
Interesting topic. I'm never pleased with the sound of regular CDs when I choose 88.1 and 176.2 kHz on the PS3. I should test 44.1-48 kHz then, I guess. I own an Onkyo 605.


When you select CD playback to 44.1, etc, and if you ahve your PS3 settings to output 88.2 and 176.4, then your CD's will automatically be upsampled to the highest frequency that your receiver accepts. Ideally, there would be separate options for 44.1, 88.2, 176.4, and 48kHz. However, because there isn't, I always set mine to 48kHz. This gives a pure soudn comapred to upsamling which I find sounds harsh and crackly.


dieroboter wrote:
Regarding the DSPs, my Onkyo, as Joe6Pack explains, doesn't let me change them. This means I can only listen to CDs in my front and center speakers. Also, the subwoofer does so little work, almost nothing. So, if I change to 44.1-48 kHz, will I be able to tweak the DSPs or, at least, double the sound in my rear channels?


If you select 48kHz, you can use whatever settings you want on your receiver. As 7thTaylor said, the Onkyo receivers cannot process sampling frequencies above 88.2kHz.
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dieroboter



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FunkyMonkey wrote:

If you select 48kHz, you can use whatever settings you want on your receiver. As 7thTaylor said, the Onkyo receivers cannot process sampling frequencies above 88.2kHz.


I've just tested it. Still not able to process. I can switch between Multichannel, Direct and Pure Audio modes, but none of them outputs sound in rear channels, and I cannot tweak them Confused

EDIT: I've done a search in other audiophile forums, seems like a common problem. 605 isn't capable of mirroring the sound, only front sound in CD playback thru PS3 HDMI.

RE-EDIT Very Happy: http://community.eu.playstation.com/showpost.php?s=e6c1c2d6cab714936d0df73f2e89b94d&p=3495389&postcount=15

"If you go into the sound settings on the PS3 and uncheck every sound option apart from 2 channel the PS3 will then send 2 channel sound correctly and the Onkyo will then output it as Dolby Pro Logic etc, if you so wish. The only problem with this is that after finishing playing any media file with 2 channel sound you then have to remember to change your sound settings back!"

Hmmm, will have to try this...
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dieroboter



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a much more convenient fix to the problem in the next page of that previous thread: http://community.eu.playstation.com/showthread.php?s=e6c1c2d6cab714936d0df73f2e89b94d&t=202263&page=2

"If you hold the digital input button on the front of the 605 for 3 seconds then press it to change HDMI from AUTO to PCM then you can select matrix options for the MP3/CD/Video ie. dolby pro logic IIX"

It works! At last, I can listen to my CDs in full and glorious pentaphonic sound Very Happy
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The Seventh Taylor



Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 401

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dieroboter wrote:
A bit off-topic, but I absolutely love "Minimum-Maximum" DVD, by Kraftwerk, to test my surround set. The DTS track is so great. Never had the chance to listen to the SACD version of it, though. You all should give it a try Wink


I've just had my first listen to the Minimum-Maximum SACD and it's instantly settled itself in my list of favourite SACDs. I've always been much into 80s and 90s (synth) pop music and especially electronic (dance) music so it's perhaps strange that I never paid attention to Kraftwerk. I realize I recognize quite a few of their tunes and am amazed how absolutely relevant their music is to this day.

The mix is perhaps somewhat odd in the sense that the sound is mixed all around (which I love) while this is a live album, not a studio album with some arbitrarily created soundscape, but I don't mind this.

I also realize now your name pays tribute to the band...
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dieroboter



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking for the SACD version of it, but I never see a good price to get it (any suggestions??). I'm glad to read you like it, it's probably one of the most impressive multichannel works available. Yeah, Kraftwerk are really important, they're considered as much influential as the Beatles.

I've been at three KW concerts, and I can tell you that 5.1 mix is heaven-like. Truly a Kraftwerk concert at home Smile the stereo mix is excellent as well.

Wir sind die roboter... Wink
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The Seventh Taylor



Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 401

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dieroboter wrote:
I'm looking for the SACD version of it, but I never see a good price to get it (any suggestions??).


It's frequently offered on eBay Germany, also now. Check here.

I've lost a number of these auctions, usually at prices of just over 50 Euro, until I accepted that this it how much it will cost me. I haven't regretted it.
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PS3SACD
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 316

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never mind that this thread has drifted a little...

The Kraftwerk SACD is also available on Amazon, at least Amazon.de

See http://www.ps3sacd.com/music.html#_Toc182573647

Note that there are two versions of this title, English (the left one) and German one. This is probably the right one, for some reason called 'GSA version'. Whoever knows what this stands for please share it here.

As for the (current) price, there's apparently little difference between eBay and Amazon in this case.
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dieroboter



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it's becoming a bit off-topic, but it really worths it Wink

Yesterday I saw that eBay link, looking for it. It's a nice price!

I can confirm that there are english and german (GSA) versions of it (of every version: CD-audio, DVD and SACD). In fact, every Kraftwerk release has this double treatment, except Radioactivity (1975).

By the way, I point you here to a user review of MinMax SACD, comparing to the DTS version:

http://www.activerecord.com/pipermail/kraftwerk/2006-May/012311.html
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The Seventh Taylor



Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 401

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Via the banner at the bottom I just noticed an English-language copy on US eBay here.

The price currently stands at USD 32.00 i.e. very favourable. Good luck bidding...

ETA: There's also a German edition here.

Not sure why that stands at $52.00. Perhaps because the auction ends a few minutes earlier?
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giraffe



Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Onkyo 606 Reply with quote

I have an Onkyo 606 which is great for bd's.
So great with uncompressed pcm sound that it naturally led me into seeing what sacd was all about.
So without much research I went out and bought the first one I could find.
I am not a big Pink Floyd fan but "Dark side of the moon" would work.
The cd options came up as:
1. regular cd
2. 2 channel pcm
3. multichannel pcm
Of course I picked number 3 because 5.1 uncompressed pcm on a blu ray pcm'd to my reciever is how I want sound to sound.
But for some weird reason the music is only coming thru the sub and rear speakers.
I tried changing the bitmapping music settings. None of them affected it.
I tried 48khz versus 44.1/88.2/176.4 khz. Same thing.
I am running with hdmi and have it set for automatic.
Am I missing a setting somewhere?
I cannot wait to hear this how it is supposed to sound!
Thanks.
-phil
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The Seventh Taylor



Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 401

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could be something completely different but it sounds like the problem discussed here.
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